This week we are doing something special - a live podcast. This particular subject of parasocial relationships with audience members is not a unique problem of YouTube but I thought there was never a subject that deserved an interactive approach with my audience as much as this one. Enjoy!

This week we take a dive into the work of ethnologist John B. Calhoun and the very unexpected results of his experiments, and most importantly what this means to us personally. It's a big-picture look, but that's what we do here, so enjoy!
Here is the full script of the episode:
Hello and welcome back to the Speaking of Cults podcast. I am your host, Chris Shelton. Usually on my podcast we circle around obvious cultic behavior and interviews with former cult members but lately we’ve been taking some deeper looks at aspects of society and our lives that may not have obvious cult connections but which in fact help us understand the cult problem in entirely different ways. Good science sheds light on all sorts of things that it may or may not have been intended for, just as common sense can sometimes help us make decisions in uncommon situations. So today we’re exploring an experiment that has intrigued scientists, philosophers, and futurists for decades: John B. Calhoun’s Universe 25.
Given that it was called Universe 25, we know there were actually many studies conducted over many years leading up to this one. They were conducted with mice but were more than just an investigation into animal behavior. Universe 25 and its results served as a chilling allegory for human societal collapse. So who was John B. Calhoun? What exactly was the Universe 25 experiment? And what lessons can we draw from it today? Let’s dive in.
To understand the Universe 25 experiment, we first need to know a bit about the man behind it. John B. Calhoun was an American ethologist and behavioral researcher who focused on the effects of population density on behavior. Born in 1917, Calhoun earned his Ph.D. in zoology from Northwestern University. Over his career, he became known for his pioneering work in the study of animal populations, and his insights have influenced fields ranging from urban planning to psychology.
Calhoun’s interest in population density began in the 1940s when he worked at the National Institute of Mental Health. He was fascinated by the idea that overpopulation could significantly alter the social and behavioral dynamics of a species. This led him to design a series of experiments with rodents, culminating in his most famous study: Universe 25.
The Universe 25 experiment was conducted in 1972 and was intended to simulate the effects of overpopulation on behavior. Calhoun created a so-called "mouse utopia"—a sealed enclosure that provided an ideal environment for mice. The habitat was meticulously designed: it was clean, climate-controlled, and stocked with unlimited food and water. There were no predators, and disease was minimized. The space was divided into small chambers connected by ramps and tunnels, providing ample room for the mice to explore.
Calhoun started with just four pairs of mice. These founding members thrived in their new environment, and their population began to grow exponentially. By Day 315, the population peaked at around 2,200 mice. But then, something strange happened.
Despite the abundance of resources, social structures began to break down. Calhoun observed a series of alarming behavioral changes, which he categorized into distinct phases. Let’s examine these phases in detail.
During the early days of the experiment, in what you might consider Phase 1 of the experiment, the mice were in what Calhoun called the "strive phase." The population grew rapidly as the original pairs of mice reproduced. Social hierarchies naturally formed, and the mice engaged in typical behaviors such as nesting, grooming, and rearing their young. During this phase, the mice’s behavior was relatively normal, and their environment appeared harmonious.
As the population grew, it entered Phase 2, the "exploit phase." Competition for space and social status began to emerge. Dominant males became more aggressive, often fighting to secure territories and mating rights. Subordinate males, unable to compete, became increasingly stressed and began to withdraw from social activities. At the same time, the growing population placed a strain on the available nesting areas, and the quality of maternal care began to decline. Instances of infanticide and neglect of offspring started to surface, foreshadowing the societal breakdown to come.
Remember, the males had no external predation or threat to protect themselves or the group from. So where were those instincts directed? Towards their fellow mice, of course, the only other living things they could interact with. And so we see factioning of the population into various groupings which arise from this internalized conflict.
By the time the population peaked, Phase 3 or the "equilibrium phase" began. This was the most critical stage, marked by what Calhoun termed the "behavioral sink." The enclosure’s social dynamics collapsed. Aggressive males continued to attack others indiscriminately, while some males became what Calhoun described as "social dropouts." These withdrawn males ceased all attempts to mate, engage in conflicts, or establish territories. Female mice, overwhelmed by the crowded conditions and constant stress, abandoned their maternal responsibilities. This led to soaring infant mortality rates.
And this is particularly interesting when you think about what assumptions could be made about how these mice “should” have been behaving. Many would look at the aggressive male behavior as perfectly normal because it’s supposed to result in those dominant males overtaking the reproduction functions and flourishing with more young of their own then anyone else, thereby winning the genetic lottery by passing on their genes and thereby ensuring more mice will come just like them. Yet where does this go? Fewer and fewer mice. This dominant aggressive behavior may intuitively look like the “natural order of things” to many of us humans looking in on this experiment, but if survival of the species is your goal, domination by the most aggressive males of the species is not the way to achieve it.
Getting back to the experiment, finally the population of mice reached Phase 4, the final or what was termed "die-off phase." Reproduction effectively ceased as the mice stopped mating altogether. A group of mice emerged that Calhoun referred to as the "beautiful ones." These individuals were physically pristine because they avoided any interaction that could lead to conflict or injury. They spent their days grooming, eating, and sleeping, completely detached from the social fabric of the community. Despite their appearance, they were emotionally and socially vacant. Over time, the population dwindled, and by Day 600, the once-thriving colony was extinct.
The implications of the Universe 25 experiment were both fascinating and deeply unsettling. Calhoun concluded that social structures and meaningful interactions are as vital to survival as physical resources. He argued that overpopulation and the resultant stress could lead to societal collapse, even in environments with abundant material wealth.
However, Calhoun’s findings were not without controversy. Critics have pointed out that mice and humans have vastly different social structures and capacities for adaptation. Still, the experiment serves as a stark reminder of the psychological and social challenges posed by overcrowding, a topic that remains relevant as urban populations grow.
So, what can we learn from Universe 25? I believe quite a bit. We need to be careful about drawing exact parallels between mice and humans because we are not the same things and human cultures are exponentially more complicated than what mice get up to. However, this experiment does tell us a great deal about the nature of life under specific, utopian conditions. And given the fact that almost every cult leader who has ever lived has centered his or her dogma around the idea of a utopian future, it is pretty interesting to see that life doesn’t thrive in utopia. It dies. 
Our parents and their parents before them told us a lot of things and made us think that how things are now is the so-called “natural order of things.” That’s not really true. Society and how things are structured and even how we interact and think about each other change radically from one society to another, from one time period to another. Our forefathers lived lives radically different from the way we live ours. And perhaps in the progress of modern technology, we have innovated ourselves away from the most important things about being a living human being: having a purpose and meaning to our lives and fostering meaningful social interactions. We have utterly failed to manage population density in a way that supports not only our mental health but our society’s future. This has led to worsening mental health conditions, higher levels of stress and anxiety and therefore higher levels of groupthink, divisiveness and us vs them thinking. These issues have become global in impact since our world has become increasingly interconnected and urbanized.
There is no question that this information can be used to encourage a kind of nihilistic attitude about today’s culture wars and ideological divides. But let’s remember that cults are a natural outgrowth of a stressful environment and on an individual basis, it doesn’t help us to abandon hope or lose sight of an optimistic future. 
 
From my perspective, Calhoun’s work is almost scientific proof that our role as human beings go beyond existing or having fun or being happy. We don’t exist just to be selfish, isolated islands of emotional ups and downs. We are tribe-based, pack animals if you will. It’s built-in to us that we need a social network and hierarchy and we need to have a place in that hierarchy that makes sense to us, that we can do meaningful work in and that we can therefore feel good about. Lacking that, all sorts of problems ensue. 
 
Coming down to earth and to us as individuals, having a purpose and function in society is everything. Having value is not something society is imposing on a person - it’s the exchange that person needs to feel part of society in the first place! It goes back to the basic equation of life itself - tit-for-tat. Ironic given the Hubbard emphasis on exchange but that’s really just him using this most basic of life’s characteristics to twist it for his own ends.
 
Behavior sink makes perfect sense - if there are no challenges, why be alive at all? It presents a practical answer to why we are even alive in the first place - it’s not just “to live” or “to exist” - we as life units need more than that. I believe this is perhaps one of the most basic emotional needs we have and this is why cult leaders can and do hook people - especially young people - with the idea of giving them a purpose or drive or meaningful existence beyond the “banality of common society” or whatever other way they talk about it. 
 
There is this old phrase out of mental health about being a ‘well adjusted’ human being. At one point, all of people’s psychological troubles were explained as a ‘chemical imbalance’ with the ridiculously simplistic idea that a pill or a breathing technique was going to cure everything that is wrong with you. Unfortunately, living a balanced life between yourself and society requires a little more work than that. Finding that balance is finding that place where you can be the person you know you are, but still coexist with the people who constantly come in and out of your life and which represent our society. We can’t just tell ourselves we are part of this picture and that we matter. We have to go do things that do matter and that make us part of the picture. That’s what it means for each of us to ‘do our part.’ I don’t mean going out and making a mark or being some influencer or even having to talk to people all that much. It’s about exchange and contribution and playing nice with others despite all the great sounding but incredibly destructive ideas that we don’t matter, that what we do doesn’t matter and that individually our lives mean nothing. I mean, if that’s true then how come we love all those time travel stories where we think that if someone goes back in time and changes even one little thing, it could end up having catastrophic consequences on the future? I’ll just say right now that every little thing you do does matter, and not just to you. And I hope at least this is some food for thought for you.
So that’s all for today’s episode of Speaking of Cults. I hope you enjoyed this deep dive into the fascinating and thought-provoking Universe 25 experiment. If you found this episode interesting, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends. Have thoughts on today’s topic? Drop us a message on our social media. See you next week. 
 

This week I have some economic issues to bring up which I believe help explain not only current ideological divides but also why there has been an apparent rise in cults for the last many decades. It's a big-picture look, but that's what we do here, so enjoy!
EPI article cited: https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

This week I welcome Helen Greene, a volunteer worker at the Freedom from Religion foundation and a wonderful guest to talk about the experience of religion (traditional and otherwise) on our psyche and what some people experience when they try to leave religion behind. Enjoy!
I'm trying out a new thing this week of including a summary of the podcast. 
Religion, Spirituality, and Deconversion Journey
In the meeting, Chris and Helen discussed their experiences with religion and spirituality. Helen shared her journey from being a liberal Catholic to studying paganism and eventually becoming an atheist. She emphasized the gradual nature of her deconversion, contrasting it with the more traumatic experiences of others who have left high-control religious groups. Helen also highlighted the challenges faced by those who leave such groups, including trust issues and difficulty in transitioning to healthy models of behavior and support. She introduced the Recovering from Religion Foundation, a 501(c)(3) organization that offers hope, healing, and support for those dealing with doubt and non-belief, regardless of their position on the spectrum of belief.
Emotional Support for Religion Recovery
Helen discussed the services provided by her organization, which offers emotional support and resources for individuals recovering from religion. She highlighted the availability of a hotline, online support groups, and a community tailored to specific religions. Helen also mentioned an annual excursion for clients and volunteers, and the organization's need for volunteers with various skills. Chris expressed his enthusiasm for the organization's work and asked Helen about her experiences over the past four years.
Addressing Religious Trauma and Abuse
Chris and Helen discussed the reasons people contact their services, with Helen noting that fear of hell is the most common issue. They also touched on the topic of religious trauma, with Helen explaining that it can be difficult for people to overcome their indoctrination and emotional reactions. Chris suggested that physical abuse in spiritually abusive homes can contribute to this issue. Helen agreed, noting that many people they work with have experienced physical and emotional abuse. They also discussed the role of culture and education in shaping people's understanding of trauma and abuse. Chris wondered about the impact of social networks on this issue, while Helen emphasized the importance of empathy and good role models in helping people change their behavior.
Exploring Religious and Spiritual Experiences
Chris and Helen discussed their experiences with various religious and spiritual groups. Chris shared his observations about the similarities between ex-cult communities, including former Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. Helen shared her journey from a liberal Catholic family to paganism, and then to skepticism and eventually atheism. She explained that paganism is a nature-based religion with no hierarchical structure, allowing individuals to create their own spiritual practices. Helen also shared her experience with the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), a group with a hierarchical structure and rules, and how she saw power dynamics within the pagan community. The conversation ended with Chris expressing his curiosity about paganism and Helen offering to share more about her experiences.
Addressing Negative Religious Experiences
Chris and Helen discussed the challenges of helping individuals recover from negative experiences with religion. They agreed that questioning deeply held beliefs and encouraging people to find out more about their religious doctrines can be helpful. Helen emphasized the importance of acknowledging and validating people's emotions, rather than dismissing their fears or beliefs. They also discussed the decline in church attendance and the shift of people from organized religion to more spiritual structures. Helen suggested that this shift could be due to a desire for more personal control and a distrust of systems and authority. Chris agreed, noting that this trend is emblematic of a broader breakdown in trust of authority and systems.
Religious Institutions and Personal Impact
Chris and Helen discussed the impact of religious institutions on individuals and society. Helen shared her personal experience of leaving the Catholic Church due to the Spotlight scandal and her subsequent involvement in the Recovering from Religion movement. They also discussed the psychology and neuroscience behind religious beliefs and how they shape the brain. Helen encouraged listeners to learn more about the movement and offered her contact information for further discussions. The conversation ended with Chris expressing his appreciation for the discussion and Helen wishing him well.

In this show, I welcome again Julie McKernan to take what I hope you'll agree is a much deeper and more nuanced conversation about what it's like to be in a cult like Scientology than you'll usually find. We cover a lot of territory in this show about how Scientologists and the Sea Org relate. Enjoy!

We are back from our November hiatus with an interview about cult fiction by author Sadie Hoagland. This is particularly important to the ex-cult space because there are tools of exposure available to fiction authors that can help inform and raise awareness about cult phenomena that non-fiction work can miss or ignore. Enjoy!
Sadie's website: https://sadiehoagland.com

This week's show is an interview with 2nd gen, former Scientologist Julie McKernan, a woman who has a long and fascinating tale to discuss about her growing up in Scientology, what it meant to her and what happened to her including a shockingly horrible incident that occurred to her as a minor which the Church of Scientology enabled and covered up. Unfortunately, this is a pattern this cult continues to engage in up to now. We cover a lot of territory in this show.
Julie can be reached at RightOn5656 (at) gmail.com.

This week I welcome Shawn McCraney, artist, pastor and someone with a story to tell of an abusive upbringing, a violent past and a reformed mental state due to the influence of religion and learned empathy. We talk about a wide range of issues and go deep on some religious issues as well. Enjoy!
Shawn's website: https://ShawnMcCraney.com